PureVideo performance

[envydyauser]

I can't tell if I'm getting any acceleration, and I'm probably not, since my driver doesn't have the option to enable VMR

I've pretty much come to the limit of my knowledge in the domain. By inference, I think that :

1. there must be some kind of video playback acceleration independent of H264 acceleration, since playback without ForceWare blatantly uses more CPU

2. this non-H264 acceleration seems to be available through (almost) any player

3. H264 (ie PureVideo xx) acceleration is proven via PowerDVD

I haven't bothered to distinguish between VMR7 / 9 / EVR etcetera upto now because I've always used VLC, due to its tangible performance advantage (I've noted your comments on VLC).

I've bought CoreAVC 1.5 but it + WMPlayer use more CPU than VLC, so I set it aside.

While I've become a fan of x264, it currently has one disadvantage : if you are making videos for distribution, you want to make sure they play back smoothly #WITHOUT# counting on the end user having GPU acceleration. You pretty much have to cross fingers that their CPU is up to the task. Hence the Profiles, but that's going off-topic too much.

cheers

envydyauser

[Guest cdx]

envydyauser

Point 1.Not sure Ive seen this!

Point 2. eeh? Do you mean HD acceleration that is not H264? Anyway I still think this is mostly CPU

Point 3. PowerDVD or MPC, Zoom, MediaCenter player using PowerDVD codecs does use PurevideoHD acceleration

Dont think EVR matters so much as I used MPC (non HE edition) and got beautiful h264 video.

Im surprised about your CoreAVC comments. I will have to check this. I know that on XP using CoreAVC alpha performance seemed better than VLC. But the problem maybe that you are using WMP and not MPC. MPC is much much lighter on resources. I found that WMP + PowerDVD codecs adds another 5-10% on CPU usage over PowerDVD. I will bet that its similar over MPC too.

I've pretty much come to the limit of my knowledge in the domain. By inference, I think that :

1. there must be some kind of video playback acceleration independent of H264 acceleration, since playback without ForceWare blatantly uses more CPU

2. this non-H264 acceleration seems to be available through (almost) any player

3. H264 (ie PureVideo xx) acceleration is proven via PowerDVD

I haven't bothered to distinguish between VMR7 / 9 / EVR etcetera upto now because I've always used VLC, due to its tangible performance advantage (I've noted your comments on VLC).

I've bought CoreAVC 1.5 but it + WMPlayer use more CPU than VLC, so I set it aside.

While I've become a fan of x264, it currently has one disadvantage : if you are making videos for distribution, you want to make sure they play back smoothly #WITHOUT# counting on the end user having GPU acceleration. You pretty much have to cross fingers that their CPU is up to the task. Hence the Profiles, but that's going off-topic too much.

cheers

envydyauser

[envydyauser]

1. there must be some kind of video playback acceleration independent of H264 acceleration, since playback without ForceWare blatantly uses more CPU

2. this non-H264 acceleration seems to be available through (almost) any player

3. H264 (ie PureVideo xx) acceleration is proven via PowerDVD

Point 1.Not sure Ive seen this!

Point 2. eeh? Do you mean HD acceleration that is not H264? Anyway I still think this is mostly CPU

Point 3. PowerDVD or MPC, Zoom, MediaCenter player using PowerDVD codecs does use PurevideoHD acceleration

Let me requalify my statements because I was not clear. My knowledge of all this is entirely empyrical, I've read through dozens of forums but haven't found a refrence resource.

We agree that the umbrella term "video hardware acceleration" covers many aspects, not just H264 acceleration.

The diagram I posted earlier shows clearly enough that PureVideo provides acceleration for CAVLC/CABAC, Inverse Transform, Motion Compensation, Deblocking (for HD or SD content).

Now, Motion Compensation and Deblocking are not H264-specific, therefore I presume that, whatever the player and codec we use, a GeForce card will provide acceleration for those two functions. but this is my presumption : it's where I expect people to correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, we know that we need :

[ PowerDVD ] + [ DXVAv2 ] + [ PureVideo ] + [ GeForce card ] = full hardware acceleration of BluRay content.

I'm trying to prove / disprove whether :

[ VLC ] + [ ??? ] + [ PureVideo ] + [ GeForce card ] = partial hardware acceleration of SD content.

You seem to say that MPC does provide HW acceleration, but is it because it uses the PowerDVD codec ?

in other words :

[ MPC ] + [ Cyberlink H264 ] + [ DXVAv2 ] + [ PureVideo ] + [ GeForce card ] = full hardware acceleration ???

but

[ MPC ] + [ CoreAVC ] + [ PureVideo ] + [ GeForce card ] = *NO* hardware acceleration

It's a bloody mess, and definitive answers are sorely lacking.

If anyone could tell me at which point in the chain VMR and EVR play a role, I'm listening !!

cheers

envydyauser

Edited October 10, 2007 by envydyauser

[Guest cdx]

Again, we know that we need :

[ PowerDVD ] + [ DXVA ] + [ PureVideo ] + [ GeForce card ] = full hardware acceleration of BluRay content.

I'm trying to prove / disprove whether :

[ VLC ] + [ ??? ] + [ PureVideo ] + [ GeForce card ] = partial hardware acceleration of SD content.

VLC uses its own codecs. The codecs (as I understand it) do not tap into the way the Nvidia acceleration is now working. Without (for example) Cyberlink codecs, you get no acceleration. I did find this quote

"VLC doesn't have support for hardware acceleration, except of course overlay (that means that the card is doing the YUV->RGB itself)."

You seem to say that MPC does provide HW acceleration, but is it because it uses the PowerDVD codec ?

in other words :

[ MPC ] + [ Cyberlink H264 ] + [ PureVideo ] + [ GeForce card ] = full hardware acceleration ???

Correct

but

[ MPC ] + [ CoreAVC ] + [ PureVideo ] + [ GeForce card ] = *NO* hardware acceleration

As stated above, Purevideo requires that the codecs tap into the NVIDIA acceleration chain (via DXVA???). CoreAVC does not support GPU acceleration period, although they are supposedly working on this.

It's a bloody mess, and definitive answers are sorely lacking.

If anyone could tell me at which point in the chain VMR and EVR play a role, I'm listening !!

cheers

envydyauser

VMR/EVR "seem" to play more of a role in image quality. EVR in particular is supposed to help with video tearing.

[envydyauser]

VLC uses its own codecs. The codecs (as I understand it) do not tap into the way the Nvidia acceleration is now working. Without (for example) Cyberlink codecs, you get no acceleration. I did find this quote

"VLC doesn't have support for hardware acceleration, except of course overlay (that means that the card is doing the YUV->RGB itself)."

Correct

I absolutely agree with you : this was my starting point. But it does not explain this empyrical result :

test : Apple Trailer / Fantastic 4 + Silver Surfer / 720p / VLC 0.8.6c / WinXP

no forceware (uninstalled & rebooted on default WinXP video driver) :

Forceware 162.18 :

Forceware 163.71 :

Hence my claim : some form of hardware acceleration is at work here, even though we know that VLC does not access PureVideo via DXVA.

And it seems to me unreasonable that the above difference in CPU usage is explained away with the mere YUV->RGB conversion.

[Guest cdx]

Forceware 162.18 :

Forceware 163.71 :

The funny thing is that I am using Forceware 101 drivers not 163 coz most laptops come with them. Toshibas come with 96 drivers (part of the same 100/101 train). The 100 driver train has been stopped I understand so this is weird!

Ive got some recent 163 drivers and I have been and will try some others I have. But so far, I have always gone back to the 100 driver train!

[Raphie]

This is indeed weird in VLC, because it should not be the case.....

Maybe theve updated this in 0.86c?

[Anime Crush]

1. there must be some kind of video playback acceleration independent of H264 acceleration, since playback without ForceWare blatantly uses more CPU

2. this non-H264 acceleration seems to be available through (almost) any player

I'm pretty sure this "acceleration" is more like the GPU doing it's standard work of rendering pixels on the screen, which is likely bypassed without ForceWare drivers, or at least greatly enhanced with them.

I'd definitely agree you're getting hardware acceleration with those numbers in the CPU usage graphs, if it is indeed using the same file and VLC for each one. Theres not really another explanation for it if theres less CPU usage and the file plays smoothly. My understanding is the newer ForceWare drivers (especially the 163.xx +) have integrated support for the PureVideo/PureVideo HD hardware acceleration, perhaps your 7300Go is just doing it's thing and the acceleration is enabled and works just fine with VLC, regardless of whether it's "officially" mentioned or not. You might be onto something here... :)

Have you checked to see if the video card temps increase any over idle during playback? I think this would indicate if the GPU is seeing a load. Does the video quality look any different from no forceware -> 162.18 -> 163.71?

[Guest cdx]

OK. Dont know if anyone is reading this but I will respond.

I have now tried quite a few MKV 264 rips on my laptop and the one thing I notice is the stuttering. Its really annoying. Anyone know which drivers get rid of this for the 8400m GS on Vista? I read somewhere that it might be the deinterlacing, but that should apply here should it?

[envydyauser]

I have now tried quite a few MKV 264 rips [...] and the one thing I notice is the stuttering [...] which drivers [...] the 8400m GS [...] Vista?

Huh ? you said you were happy with playback using PowerDVD 7.2 some time ago ?!

The more I read about this topic, the more it seems that the slowest system component is Windows Vista.

cheers

envydyauser

[cdx47]

Well that was before I sat down and properly watched a whole movie :) Funnily enough, the 1080p stuff is (in general) working. I think the problem is Haali and Matroska. But Vista has a large part to play in this and I suspect if I turn off Aero it will work better. Its not like the films slow down or anything. its just little annoying stutters in the picture. After a while your brain stops noticing.

Edited November 12, 2007 by ®®®
Removed Full Quotation of Previous Post

[cdx47]

Huh ? you said you were happy with playback using PowerDVD 7.2 some time ago ?!

cheers

envydyauser

Actually PDVD 7.3!!! Very very important as 7.2 did NOT do acceleration on my laptop

[Guest cdx47]

In Summary

1. I have tried lots of drivers and the one that seems to be best "so far" is 156.66

2. On Vista, PDVD 7.3 is minimus you need to get video accelaration

3.I can watch720 MKVs with 264 encoded films and 1080p MPEG2 TS encoded films using Mediacenter no problem using PDVD video codecs and FDshow audio codecs downmixing to Prologic II

4 . PDVD seems to still stutter but has lower CPU utilisation than Medacenter

5. I can play 1080p evo rips using PDVD pretty smoothly since I started using 156.66 drivers

6. Now that I am watching whole movies, what I said about playing 720p "all day" probably applies more to XP with CoreAVC than Vista with PDVD.

[cdx47]

(yet another tidy up)

In Summary, for my HP Pavilion 6500 laptop

1. I have tried lots of graphics drivers and the one that seems to be best "so far" is 156.66. It has the HDMI stability and features of series 100 with advanced features of 160 series (in particular resize desktop and inverse telecine)

2. On Vista, PowerDVD 7.3 is minimum you need to get video accelaration working.

3.I can watch720 MKVs with x264 encoded films and 1080p MPEG2 TS encoded films using Mediacenter no problem using PDVD video codecs and FDshow audio codecs downmixing to Prologic II.

4 . PDVD seems to still stutter (this is wierd but Im working on it) but still has lower CPU utilisation than Medacenter.

5. I can play 1080p evo rips using PDVD pretty smoothly since I started using 156.66 drivers and some 160 drivers.

6. Now that I am watching whole movies, what I said about playing 720p "all day" probably applies more to XP with CoreAVC than Vista with PDVD.

[envydyauser]

Hello there - thanks for the updates.

Like I said in my first post, hard results are very elusive in this topic ... !

I've been wanting to try out Anime Crush's suggestion :

Have you checked to see if the video card temps increase any over idle during playback? I think this would indicate if the GPU is seeing a load. Does the video quality look any different from no forceware -> 162.18 -> 163.71?

I haven't watched any video at all since then, but last night I recorded about 3 hours of DVB-T through Pinnacle TC Center, with hardware acceleration active, and the GPU temperature never budged from 39/40°C.

Of course unless we know what exactly Pinnacle TVCenter does when you click "hardware acceleration", there's no way of telling how the GPU was solicited. I hope to be able to test video playback this week.

cheers

envydyauser

Edited November 13, 2007 by envydyauser

[cdx47]

As for stuttering video I think I know why this happens on Vista. 3 letters, EVR. I have a special version of MPC which enables me to switch on this Vista specific renderer. When I do, I get stuttering. My guess is that PowerDVD enables this by default. This explains how normal MPC and even Vista MC can play without stuttering with the cost being 30% CPU as opposed to 5% with PDVD.

*update*

There is definitely a problem with EVR, but...it may be the NVIDIA driver implementation thats actually causing the problem. After doing yet more searching and investigating, I found some evidence that the Nvidia implementation of DXVA may not be great. So I turned it off in PDVD and although my CPU goes up to around 30% (see above) most of the stuttering is gone. I also turned off DXVA in MPC HE edition and the same thing occured.

*conclusion*

Vista + VMR9 + Acceleration = CPU between 17 & 30% but no stuttering

Vista + EVR + Acceleration = CPU at 5% but video stuttering

Vista + EVR - Acceleration = CPU at around 20 to 40% but much reduced stuttering

Edited November 19, 2007 by cdx47

[cdx47]

[They say that talking to yourself is the first sign of madness]

Anyway, I just did a little more investigating last night and it turns out that my EVR hotfix actually does fix something. My 1080p rips now play using EVR with little or no stuttering. The MKVs however still stutter. This is probably not surprising as the codecs were not optimised for MKV rips :)

[LSudlow]

cdx47, thanks for keeping this thread going, even if you aren't getting many responses. I know there are a few of us watching your results with great interest.

Where is the EVR hotfix you mentioned?

:)

[cdx47]

Where is the EVR hotfix you mentioned?

:)

I was waiting for someone to ask this :)

Do a Google for evr.dll hotfix. If you still cant find it then I will check one of my USB sticks for the KB number.

[LSudlow]

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/935878/en-us

In reading various video forum posts, this indeed helps!

:)

[cdx47]

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/935878/en-us

In reading various video forum posts, this indeed helps!

:)

You're most welcome

[envydyauser]

Hello guys

yes this has always been a 3-way thread between the three of us, mostly. Funny.

I honestly haven't had time to spend testing these last few weeks. ALso, I've kept away from EVR, 1 because I'm a VLC fan, 2. because from what I gather on doom9, EVR under XP is counterproductive.

The CPU temperature test suggested by Anime Crush is still in the pipeline as far as I'm concerned, I've simply been blocked by lack of time.

Are you guys using the newest 169.x bunch of forceware, or still 163 ?

cheers

envydyauser

[cdx47]

Hello guys

Are you guys using the newest 169.x bunch of forceware, or still 163 ?

cheers

envydyauser

Im actually using 156 coz Im using a laptop.

[edit] You seem to be using a laptop as well :) I always had problems with the 160 series or at least I remember having problems with them. If it would stop the stupid stuttering then I would try them again. Although not admittedly a major issue when you can just turn off the acceleration. And with a Core2Duo there isnt a major performance hit

Edited November 25, 2007 by cdx47

[cdx47]

OK

I just watched some of a 1080p Transformers rip and its impressive. However the most impressive rip Ive seen so far is a 720p rip from a HDTV of Revenge of the Sith. Now thats HiDef :P

Anyway I found a way around the jitter issue using EVR. What I do is use MPC HomeCinema edition and use its custom EVR settings to increase the buffers from default:5 to 20. Now this didnt work the last time I tried it, but maybe now it works because of the EVR hotfix. [edit] Oh and in this mode a few frames are dropped but image is stable. Whereas in standard EVR no frames are lost but the image is jittery. Go figure :)

Ive ramped everything up to max i.e.

Use Texture Surfaces and Render in 3D

Bicubic 1.00 Shader model 2

Inverse Telecine (do I need this?)

Force Weave (do I need this?)

Now Ive done all of this, my CPU is back up to 30% even with Hardware acceleration :)

Edited November 26, 2007 by cdx47

[envydyauser]

Now Ive done all of this, my CPU is back up to 30% even with Hardware acceleration :)

for the 1080 or for the 720 ?

30% of a DualCore is *a lot* of CPU.

To doublecheck, what kind of CPU usage figures does playback with VLC 0.8.6c give you, for the same movie ?

cheers

envydyauser